Author Topic: Valve talk  (Read 700 times)

Offline Delmar

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Valve talk
« on: October 25, 2011, 01:29:28 AM »
OK, I am planning my first build and I would like to discuss the differences in sprinkler valves, QEV, and spring loaded  ball valves. Do I understand correctly that a QEV will not release as much air at a time, but could give me multiple shots if I have a big enough tank?

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 10:12:51 PM »
Of the three, the sprinkler valve has the least potential. Very limited in pressure and flow. I've been able to achieve 100 fpe with one, but it takes a lot of air and dangerous overpressurization: http://youtu.be/PAcsxt6nQrQ. Note that it can be hooked to a tank in the field as well. To get 100 fpe, I had to use a 26" barrel with .58 roundballs. I pumped it to 175 psi.  :o Not smart on my  part, but I'm still here in one piece.
The qev has a lot of flow restriction, but makes up a lot of that by being a very quick opening valve. With the right valving and modification, they can be used to make repeaters. Check out my video on air machine guns to get an idea of how: http://youtu.be/0BXPoN0zrCQ. Replace the pop off with a standard blowgun valve and adjust the fill rate to be slower, and the airgun will fill itself while you reload. I've had very good success using a 1/2" qev from fastenal on a .40 barrel. They have a 3/4" one that would work better for larger bores.
A spring loaded ball valve is cheap, doesnt require a pilot valve, and has very little flow restriction. They open slower than the qev, but make up for that by having less flow restriction. With a little work, they can be adapted to working with an air tank, just not as nicely as the qev. Check out this thread: http://www.airgununiverse.net/community/index.php/topic,135.0.html. Its a long read, but has some useful info.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 10:15:17 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline Delmar

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2011, 04:57:11 AM »
I googled the term high pressure ball valve and found this... Raptor Blast High Pressure Ball Valve, 1/2" Female X Female, 7250PSI


Seems affordable enough, but I have to wonder if it will be harder to open as quickly as a standard ball valve?

I also found one that looks like this...
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&q=high+pressure+ball+valve&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=15038333831487494665&sa=X&ei=7zepTs-6Gc3OgAey-IAj&ved=0CIEBEPMCMAI

but it is not obvious to me how that thing works.

I should also mention that quiet operation is a serious concern for me. I have plenty of conventional firearms I could shoot in the back yard if disturbing the whole neighborhood were not an issue.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2011, 07:37:54 AM »
Here's what you will be wanting if you use a ball valve: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=15J7951&CMP=AFC-GB100000001. It is important to use a full bore one to minimize air restriction. Full bores are getting harder for me to obtain locally.  :(

What do you plan to use to fill your airgun with air? If you have an old refrigerator or air conditioner, their compressors can be used to supply air up to 600+ psi. In the interest of keeping sound to a minimum, you will want to use a low volume of high pressure air and a long barrel to allow the air to expend as much energy as possible on the projectile. Supposedly the ATF has ruled that integral suppressors are legal for airguns, it might be worth researching into if you need to drop the noise down even more. I personally dont trust criminal organizations such as the ATF, so I stay on the clear side of the law on that issue  ;D

This video demonstrates how quiet low volume high pressure air can be without a supressor: http://youtu.be/Jb8lvG7CENQ. The camera was right below the airgun for most of the shots seen there. Since it is subsonic and there is minimal blast, the shot noise doesnt carry very far.

Offline Delmar

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 05:03:38 AM »
Here's what you will be wanting if you use a ball valve: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=15J7951&CMP=AFC-GB100000001.
$23.95 + a $20 handling fee +shipping? Ouch!
Quote

It is important to use a full bore one to minimize air restriction. Full bores are getting harder for me to obtain locally.  :(
I'll have to see if Nibco makes one that will do the trick. I live near where they make them and I have a buddy that works at the factory.
Quote
What do you plan to use to fill your airgun with air? If you have an old refrigerator or air conditioner, their compressors can be used to supply air up to 600+ psi.
I have an old window AC that I don't use I might be able to talk the wife into letting me tear into that. Otherwise I might have to be on the lookout for an old fridge. I'm a resourceful fellow, I'm sure I can come up with something!
Quote

In the interest of keeping sound to a minimum, you will want to use a low volume of high pressure air and a long barrel to allow the air to expend as much energy as possible on the projectile. Supposedly the ATF has ruled that integral suppressors are legal for airguns,
Do you think a rifled barrel VS a smooth bore would figure into the sound? Seems like a rifled barrel would provide more resistance.
Quote


 it might be worth researching into if you need to drop the noise down even more. I personally dont trust criminal organizations such as the ATF, so I stay on the clear side of the law on that issue  ;D

This video demonstrates how quiet low volume high pressure air can be without a supressor: http://youtu.be/Jb8lvG7CENQ. The camera was right below the airgun for most of the shots seen there. Since it is subsonic and there is minimal blast, the shot noise doesnt carry very far.
Staying subsonic will be one of the primary things I will do to keep the sound down. I was also thinking of building a little "shooting shack" for my backyard gun range and adding a bunch of egg crate and stuff to dampen the sound.

Offline Pellethuntr

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 11:03:09 AM »
I've been reading over your posts and I came up with a few thoughts for you.. For one the power needed to take a fox or coyote is well within the grasps of an airgun.. but that said obtaining those powers comes with sacrifices.. for your average ball valve airgun to obtain enough velocity and enough penetration to take a big critter you will probably be looking at getting just one shot to maximize it's potential.. If you are working with say 100-200 psi you will need a much larger reservoir of air and a longer barrel to get the velocity you want adn this makes your gun bulky and more difficult to fill.. The problem I am running into is the noise that such a gun makes.. I am wondering if it is possible to make a low pressure airgun with enough power to kill a predator but quiet enough to not to disturb your neighbors..  I have a test gun that I could get some ideas off of if you like.. the barrel is .50 caliber 28 inches long and the reservoire is 1 inch in diameter and about 14 inches long.. My max fill pressure is 1,000 psi so let me know what yourmax fill pressure is gonna be and I can tell you and show you roughly what the power will be.. Let me just say that at 1,000 psi my gun is very powerful and also very loud.. I think that is shooting well over 200 foot pound of energy which is plenty for a fox or yote at reasonable range
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Offline Delmar

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 04:41:46 PM »
I've been reading over your posts and I came up with a few thoughts for you.. For one the power needed to take a fox or coyote is well within the grasps of an airgun.. but that said obtaining those powers comes with sacrifices.. for your average ball valve airgun to obtain enough velocity and enough penetration to take a big critter you will probably be looking at getting just one shot to maximize it's potential.. If you are working with say 100-200 psi you will need a much larger reservoir of air and a longer barrel to get the velocity you want adn this makes your gun bulky and more difficult to fill.. The problem I am running into is the noise that such a gun makes.. I am wondering if it is possible to make a low pressure airgun with enough power to kill a predator but quiet enough to not to disturb your neighbors..  I have a test gun that I could get some ideas off of if you like.. the barrel is .50 caliber 28 inches long and the reservoire is 1 inch in diameter and about 14 inches long.. My max fill pressure is 1,000 psi so let me know what yourmax fill pressure is gonna be and I can tell you and show you roughly what the power will be.. Let me just say that at 1,000 psi my gun is very powerful and also very loud.. I think that is shooting well over 200 foot pound of energy which is plenty for a fox or yote at reasonable range
I have never seen fox or coyote on my property. The main trouble I have is with racoons, groundhogs and skunks. I may just start by buying the first decent valve I find at a good price  and design the gun around it. It won't be a disappointment to me if the first gun I build does not  turn out exactly as I planned. I do tend to enjoy the process of learning. Learning before I make mistakes is good though, so any observations you have are welcome. I'm sure that, before I am done I will build at let one pistol and at least one rile. Also I will build at least one gun with a QEV and at least one with a ball valve. Might even take a shot at pistons and multiple valve designs, before I am done! Have you ever seen a good design for a really practical home built semi auto?

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 07:14:52 PM »
Yeah, I'd try buying a valve locally, your friend might be able to get you what you need. If not, some of the smaller locally owned farm type stores seem to have full port ball valves gathering dust.  ;D I've mostly dealt with smoothbores, here's an idea of what my smoothbore .40 QEV airgun can do offhand at 20 yards using patched 3/8" ball bearings:

Not a tack driver, but plenty good enough to hunt.
For a practical semi auto, you might look to pick up where I left off on my balanced spool valve. This winter I plan to take the project back up myself. The other way is to use a 3 way valve to pilot a QEV.
Staying subsonic is very important of course for noise, as is using just enough air to propel the projectile to the desired velocity, and no more than that. Since supersonic speeds are difficult to achieve with airguns, this is the biggest factor in reducing noise. Helps a lot with accuracy too. You'll find that higher pressures are much more efficient than lower ones. The 400 to 600 psi a fridge or air conditioner compressor can achieve will give plenty of bang for the buck.
That shooting shack sounds like a good idea, might have to try that one myself.  8)

Offline Delmar

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2011, 10:29:29 AM »
My property is only 1 1/3 acres so I really don't need to shoot much further than that.

Offline Pellethuntr

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2011, 07:41:10 PM »
I agree with Admin.. A ball valve airgun running 400-600 psi out of a mid sized reservoir (eg: 1 inch by 12 inch) with a barrel that is .40 -.50 caliber and say 26-30 inches long, would be very potent on the smaller critters like raccoons and skunks.. Effective range would be say 20-30 yards.. I ran GGDT for the gun I described above and It gave a muzzle velocity of 622 fps with a 100 grain bullet
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Offline Delmar

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2011, 03:36:48 AM »
I agree with Admin.. A ball valve airgun running 400-600 psi out of a mid sized reservoir (eg: 1 inch by 12 inch) with a barrel that is .40 -.50 caliber and say 26-30 inches long, would be very potent on the smaller critters like raccoons and skunks.. Effective range would be say 20-30 yards.. I ran GGDT for the gun I described above and It gave a muzzle velocity of 622 fps with a 100 grain bullet
That sounds just about right! Plus if I use a .45 cal barrel I can use the same lead round balls I use in my cap and ball guns.

Offline Delmar

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2011, 06:46:17 AM »
... It is important to use a full bore one to minimize air restriction. Full bores are getting harder for me to obtain locally... 
So yesterday I was at tractor supply but I didn't have much time so I was quickly looking at some ball valves. I picked up a 3/4" ball valve and opened it up and I saw what you were talking about. The bore was only about 1/2". Then this morning when I woke up, I think the light came on it my brain! The bore of the valve doesn't  need to be any bigger than the barrel coming out of the valve, does it? In fact, if I am planning a 1" x12" reservoir, I could close it with a $10 1" ball valve and I would have all the air that a 1/2 barrel can handle, would I not?

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 07:55:37 AM »
the 1" ball valve would definitely do the trick. Ideally you want the barrel to be the biggest restriction in a system. A bushing would neck it down to the proper barrel size. In fact, you'll probably get better power with this setup. Larger diameter, but shorter air chambers produce a bit more power than small diameter long ones. I think you're on the right track.

Offline Delmar

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2011, 11:08:38 AM »
the 1" ball valve would definitely do the trick. Ideally you want the barrel to be the biggest restriction in a system. A bushing would neck it down to the proper barrel size. In fact, you'll probably get better power with this setup. Larger diameter, but shorter air chambers produce a bit more power than small diameter long ones. I think you're on the right track.
In that case, I think I have the design of my first gun fairly well worked out in my mind. Now I need to start looking for an old fridge, or working on another way to get it pumped up! I do have an air compressor but it tops out at 100 PSI and my son got the adjusting valve stuck at 20 PSI so until I get that fixed I can't even pump up a tire.

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Re: Valve talk
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2011, 01:14:05 PM »
If you bypass your tank and adjust the pressure switch you can get up to 250 psi with a cheap compressor lol